Club Debate Club Debate

Cho Seung-Hui & What makes sense

Submitted by KJ 4/21/07
He was a stranger, different, isolated, teased, mocked and alone. He then chose an extremely evil way to have his revenge.

I am neither rationalizing, nor excusing what he did in killing the students & faculty at Virginia Tech but I can see why and maybe what happened. Do you know what it is liked to see someone be picked on, and gossiped about so much so it can physically make you ill? I bet some of us do. An old friend of mine from high school is manic-depressive. Back then no one had any idea what was wrong with him. 350 days out of the year he was normal but in two weeks or so time he could self destruct. He would talk out-loud to himself after not being able to sleep for 48 hours. Other kids, even his ‘friends’ teased him and even more so teased him laughingly behind his back. Even in his state of mania he knew what was happening he was cast out of the herd, the peer group did not approve. Even some kids who came out of the closet had more acceptance. He was labeled “crazy”.

The difference is he took it in stride; he was determined to “triumph in spite of them” and try to lead a fulfilling life and be a successful man. He told me of a hand written letter he received on a Saturday morning from a fellow student that was written anonymously. It was in a girls handwriting and it described how bad she felt for him letting him know how many people in his entire high school were talking about him and his odd behavior that he felt he had no control over. He read it and looked up at his Father who took it from him read it and asked what he wanted to do with it. He told his Dad to tear it up, and throw it away; that it didn’t matter and he would graduate pretending nothing was wrong.He never was violent he said because that would be a failure.

Who should a person attack when they sink into such a haze of insanity? When students and teachers really don’t know what’s wrong but continue to harass some one or stonewalling them into their own corner? My old friend said he felt like almost everyone around him was putting him down, and it would be the worst thing to lash out at anyone.

I only know of this story since he told me over drinks after his father died. He said some of the same things happened in college, but it was nothing at all as bad as highschool.

Cho wanted revenge, he wanted his evil legacy broadcast, he wanted to kill and then die with his victims. It is similar to Columbine in that those kids and he were outsiders with an evil plan and had then had cowardice to carry it out instead of proving everyone else wrong, that they could be great someday and find their own niche. Its too bad everyone else talked about Cho but did not DO anything. The tragedy is this has now happened too many times and now we are less in shock and more numb.

Out of all the pieces of TV, Internet, and print journalism- Peggy Noonans article is the most accurate, she said it best:

"Common sense says someone should have stepped in like an adult, like a person in authority, and taken him away. It is only common sense that if a person like Cho leaves a self-aggrandizing, self-celebrating, self-pitying video diary of himself to be played by the mass media, the mass media should not play it and not publicize it, not make it famous."- Peggy Noonan

Divorce Sucks. Being Single Again is Worse

Submitted Anonymously on 4/21/07
I am not here to whine. In fact, I am not sure why the hell I am here except that I am. I've sunk to a whole new level.

My long story cut short is that I was in a passionate-less marriage. Besides that, my ex is great. He's smart, interesting, kind, generous - a great friend. Still is. But I am a very sensual person and couldn't spend the rest of my life not being in love.

I did what probably 80% of married couples wish they had the balls to do. I asked for a divorce. I have two kids so this was not done without a lot of thought. In the end, I went into such a depression (took meds to get me out of it) that I didn't have a choice but to take the plunge. Am I happy I did? I wish I didn't have to do it but am relieved that it is over. We are amicable, the kids are cool about everything and he's still my best friend.

So, now I'm single again. And I don't know what happened in the 16 years that I was married but men these days have no clue how to date. They either want sex immediately or don't call for 3 weeks after a GOOD date. What is up with that? If you're interested in someone, call!

Before you guys start trashing me, I am not ugly. In fact, I have men asking me out all the time. I look a helluva lot younger than my 42 years, am very thin and very smart. I have been called the total package and no one understands why I'm still single. Oh, and I am not on drugs or meds.

Know why I'm single. Because no one seems to know how to have a relationship. I am suppose to meet a guy on Sunday who I met online. Guarantee you that he won't call or follow through. And it's not like he already met me and is blowing me off. No, he hasn't met me and will probably blow me off. So how the hell are girls who aren't hot suppose to meet men when women like me can't even get a date! Unfortunately, looks are important to me or I would date an average-looking guy who would shower me with affection.

So here I sit on another Friday night. Alone. And lord knows I would love to be getting laid right now, it's been a few months. But I am not willing to just sleep with someone - that gets lonely too after a while.

Being single is depressing. Being divorced is worse. Or maybe not 'cause I have two beautiful kids. And I got to keep the dog. LOL

Scientology-My View

Submitted by Chris on 4/20/07
Scientology certainly isn't the first religion to end up in court a lot (see, for example, the Catholic Church's pedophile priest scandal). The difference I see here is WHAT Scientology sues over. For example, they managed to force a person who'd posted their texts online to take them down, because they were copyrighted. Most, if not all, other religions make their texts available to anyone who wants to read them, whether or not those people are "spiritually prepared" to understand the texts. From what I've read, Scientology doesn't make most texts available to people until they've paid a LOT of money for them. Compare that to most Christian churches, that will generally GIVE you a Bible, or sell you one at close to what it cost them (or leave one in your hotel room nightstand ;-).

Scientology has sued people who've called it a "cult." Most churches or other organizations (think Weight Watchers or any 12-step program based on A.A.) who've been tarred with the "cult" label just kind of shrug it off. That doesn't seem to be the case with Scientology.

I recall reading an interview with Tom Cruise in "The Wave" (that free San Jose-based entertainment magazine you can find in downtown SF and also in SJ, I suppose), where he talked about the Scientology "Narconon" being the "most successful drug rehabilitation program." It's a shame that Scientology teaches ridiculous fables about drugs being a greasy residue that leave the body during their detox process, which is something no medical drug expert believes is true. Unfortunately, according to an SF Chronicle article I read, some public schools actually allowed a Scientology person to spread this myth (you can look on SFgate.com if you don't believe me - I'm sure you can search and find it there). I'm sure it's also a mere coincidence that the name "Narconon" sounds like a combination "Narcotics Anonymous" and "Al-Anon," the support group for people with alcoholics in their families (I'm not sure, but there probably is a corresponding "Nar-Anon" for families of drug addicts). I'm sure "Narconon" wasn't so named in order to hoodwink addicts and their families in the same way "crisis pregnancy centers" are so named to trick young women who want to get an abortion into heading to a place where they'll be lectured about how abortion is murder. ;-)

If you want to be a Scientologist; great, go for it. But you should know you're in a cult designed to rob you of your money and your consciousness, more so than most organized religions (which I believe also mostly just want your money and your consciousness).

My Ramblings on VA Tech, Bullies & Empathy

Submitted Anonymously on 4/19/07


The headlines today say that Cho was bullied and made fun of in high school. Why am I not surprised?

Bullying in the school system is an increasing problem and has been for several years. Even a few weeks ago a video was released showing kids brawling it out. But who is taking any action about it? People don't go to school board meetings anymore because they "don't have time". Either you are too busy sitting on your fat asses glued to your Television, or you are too busy getting your nails done and driving your kids to soccer practice in your new Escalade (everything you have you buy on credit).

Thankfully, a few people have had the guts to stand up to a messed up school system and sue them for allowing their kids to get bullied. What really needs to happen is teachers need to be allowed to discipline kids when they need it.

The irony of it is, the kids who that kid killed were probably the same kids who were bullying and making fun of other kids just a few years ago in back their own high schools.

How many American or Iraqi solders AND/OR civilians were killed on that same day? I don't see any big candle light vigil for them.

On 9/11 how many people who were killed on that day by drunk drivers? Or how many a fireman or law enforcement were killed on the job somewhere else in the country? And where is the million dollar trust fund for them?

What was so special about a bunch of people in a building that they deserve more recognition?

I will tell you what it is. Hypocrites, Americans.

Americans have no TRUE sense of empathy left. Americans would not do anything to help someone just because of, say, LOVE for their fellow man. No, you only help the "less fortunate" if they can get a warm fuzzy (or a photo opp) out of it. That's it, nothing more. You don't do anything for anyone unless there's something in it for you.

Just ask anyone who works in a homeless shelter how hard it is to find volunteers on a date like March 12th or August 3rd. The only days anyone wants to "volunteer" is a holiday like Thanksgiving or Christmas. What it boils down to is that most people in America really have any actual desire to help anyone else unselfishly or out of love. Rather, a few days before the holiday they suddenly come to the realization that they lead terribly empty yuppie status-desiring, conspicuous-consumerist lives. And so one day a year they suddenly decide to feel penitent for it. Any other day, while ruling from their throne in their all-white suburb, they couldn't give a shit if every "new orleans nigger" or "chinatown chink" or "Juan the wetback" or "(insert your own slur here)", etc. etc. vaporizes, disappears or dies and gets buried in an unmarked grave.

But today is different. Today is Thanksgiving (or Christmas). Today is a day to celebrate goodness, right? So then they feel like shit for their hatefulness and selfishness. They need a vehicle to help themselves feel better about themselves while they still stand there with a serving spoon and tray in hand and take false pity on the poor soul on the other side of the counter for their plight.

And when it's all cleaned up, then they say to themselves, "There but by the grace of God go I," still feeling prideful because they were born into tremendous opportunity (which they actually had no control over anyway)...as though that in itself were some amazing accomplishment for which they should receive credit. Lording it over others is their #1 skill.

And then they go back to the parking lot, take off their cloak of false humility and re-dress themselves with self-righteousness, hop into the Escalade and drive home, all the way patting themselves on the back for having "remembered" the less fortunate. Yes, how great and mighty a person they are (even if only in their mind).

This is not charity, rather exploitation.

And it's the business of the day, every day of the week, in America.

Sadly, I would say this kind of incident like VA Tech is probably only going to increase in the future because you people have cultivated a society that puts money and things ahead of love and concern for your fellow human being. What a shame.

Imus is not the real bad guy!

Anonymously Submitted on 4/12/07

"Instead of wasting time on irrelevant shock jock, black leaders need to be fighting a growing gangster culture. By JASON WHITLOCK - Columnist

Thank you, Don Imus. You’ve given us (black people) an excuse to avoid our real problem. You’ve given Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson another opportunity to pretend that the old fight, which is now the safe and lucrative fight, is still the most important fight in our push for true economic and social equality. You’ve given Vivian Stringer and Rutgers the chance to hold a nationally televised recruiting celebration expertly disguised as a news conference to respond to your poor attempt at humor. Thank you, Don Imus. You extended Black History Month to April, and we can once again wallow in victimhood, protest like it’s 1965 and delude ourselves into believing that fixing your hatred is more necessary than eradicating our self-hatred. The bigots win again. While we’re fixated on a bad joke cracked by an irrelevant, bad shock jock, I’m sure at least one of the marvelous young women on the Rutgers basketball team is somewhere snapping her fingers to the beat of 50 Cent’s or Snoop Dogg’s or Young Jeezy’s latest ode glorifying nappy-headed pimps and hos. I ain’t saying Jesse, Al and Vivian are gold-diggas, but they don’t have the heart to mount a legitimate campaign against the real black-folk killas. It is us.

At this time, we are our own worst enemies. We have allowed our youths to buy into a culture (hip hop) that has been perverted, corrupted and overtaken by prison culture. The music, attitude and behavior expressed in this culture is anti-black, anti-education, demeaning, self-destructive, pro-drug dealing and violent. Rather than confront this heinous enemy from within, we sit back and wait for someone like Imus to have a slip of the tongue and make the mistake of repeating the things we say about ourselves. It’s embarrassing. Dave Chappelle was offered $50 million to make racially insensitive jokes about black and white people on TV. He was hailed as a genius. Black comedians routinely crack jokes about white and black people, and we all laugh out loud. I’m no Don Imus apologist. He and his tiny companion Mike Lupica blasted me after I fell out with ESPN. Imus is a hack. But, in my view, he didn’t do anything outside the norm for shock jocks and comedians. He also offered an apology. That should’ve been the end of this whole affair. Instead, it’s only the beginning. It’s an opportunity for Stringer, Jackson and Sharpton to step on victim platforms and elevate themselves and their agenda$.

I watched the Rutgers news conference and was ashamed. Martin Luther King Jr. spoke for eight minutes in 1963 at the March on Washington. At the time, black people could be lynched and denied fundamental rights with little thought. With the comments of a talk-show host most of her players had never heard of before last week serving as her excuse, Vivian Stringer rambled on for 30 minutes about the amazing season her team had. Somehow, we’re supposed to believe that the comments of a man with virtually no connection to the sports world ruined Rutgers’ wonderful season. Had a broadcaster with credibility and a platform in the sports world uttered the words Imus did, I could understand a level of outrage. But an hourlong press conference over a man who has already apologized, already been suspended and is already insignificant is just plain intellectually dishonest. This is opportunism. This is a distraction. In the grand scheme, Don Imus is no threat to us in general and no threat to black women in particular. If his words are so powerful and so destructive and must be rebuked so forcefully, then what should we do about the idiot rappers on BET, MTV and every black-owned radio station in the country who use words much more powerful and much more destructive? I don’t listen or watch Imus’ show regularly. Has he at any point glorified selling crack cocaine to black women? Has he celebrated black men shooting each other randomly? Has he suggested in any way that it’s cool to be a baby-daddy rather than a husband and a parent? Does he tell his listeners that they’re suckers for pursuing education and that they’re selling out their race if they do? When Imus does any of that, call me and I’ll get upset. Until then, he is what he is — a washed-up shock jock who is very easy to ignore when you’re not looking to be made a victim." How great is that!!!!!!!! Can we all move foreword now? and fight a real battle

Imus V. The Rappers

Column submitted by Joe New York Submitted by Joe New York

Imus Vs. The Rappers
Many people have compared what Imus said to the despicable things that rappers spew on thier albums. Couple of points: Imus personally insulted specific people in a racist and mysogenist manner on national radio. Furthermore it was a group of young students who would be affected by this in a manner that could be psychologically trying and which sends a message that black women are somehow unacceptable to society no matter how hard they try and no matter what their achievements. His show is seen as somewhat mainstream and certainly has sponsors and guests that are important and mainstream. What rappers do is similar, maybe even worse. Sharpton should take them to task. Walmart and other stores should ban their albums (maybe). But nobody seems to be putting pressure to do that, and if they did it would become a huge censorship issue. Supposedly the issue is addressed vis-a-vis the music warning labels. Are we now saying this is not enough? I don't know the answer, but I suspect banning these albums would only draw attention and wind up increasing sales for those artists. The black community should condemn these artists. However, in a sense their horrible lyrics reflect some reality of the attitudes of black men. So then how do you change an entire culture? In the case of Imus, presumably we are changing the culture of racism in mainstream society, but in the case of rap, arguably, we would be trying to change culture in the "ghetto" only (although rap is widely consumed by white America). Rap, like it or not, is an intractable cultural phenomenom. It is certainly easier to deal with Imus, being as he is just one guy and an easy target. But to change the entire rap industry and the culture it represents is not as simple as that, nor is it simple, by firing Imus, to change mainstream racist attitudes (if that is indeed what Imus represents). So in conclusion, I have to say that punishing Imus is easy, that's why it is being done, but punishing JayZee or Snoop . .. that would not work because you would have to punish a WHOLE INDUSTRY AND CULTURE. I would appreciate your thoughts on that.

Snoop Dog on why he gets to talk shit but Imus can't...

"It's a completely different scenario. (Rappers) are not talking about no collegiate basketball girls who have made it to the next level in education and sports. We're talking about hoes that's in the 'hood that ain't doing shit, that's trying to get a nigga for his money. These are two separate things. First of all, we ain't no old-ass white men that sit up on MSNBC going hard on black girls. We are rappers that have these songs coming from our minds and our souls that are relevant to what we feel. I will not let them muthafuckas say we are in the same league as him. Kick him off the air forever."
- Snoop dismissing comparisons between sexist hip hop lyrics and the recent sexist/racially charged remarks made by Don Imus

The rational mindset is LIBERAL

Submitted anonymously on April 7, 2007


The law guarantees not just equal opportunity but equal outcomes for everyone. The law "guarantees" absolutely nothing.

2. There is no such thing as race. Race is just a concept. Race is really "culture". Not sure what "culture" has now become? Put it on the working agenda for the next ACLU meeting. True...race is really not a "real" concept. However, it has been and continues to be a false concept that has been imbued with MEANING that continues to have an impact in this american CULTURE. It affects many things, (life expectancy, for example) as any number of statistics indicate.

3. Racism is prevalent in our society and the reason why we don't all just get along. Increasing diversity so that there is more racial tension is the only way to remedy this problem. Rule #3 shall not in any form diminish the validity of Rule#2. I actually agree with you on this.

4. Facts are subjective and depend on the personal situation and experience of those encountering them. Remember the new math? The old math was so preoccupied with being "right" all the time. Again...I agree to some extent. However, the fact that Toyota charged black customers more for financing than white customers, regardless of income, credit history, etc...that is a fact. II suppose the whys of that "policy" can be interpreted in any number of ways, but the reason is blatantly obvious. They did it because they could. So much for your first argument.

5. History is not an event. It is a process that results in continually changing "facts". These magical transformations can only be properly interpreted by someone who is racially the same as the people whose history is being studied. Nothing in Rule#5 shall diminish the validity of Rule#2. History as taught in most US schools is little more than propaganda...myth. As previously excluded history comes to light, it helps to create a clearer picture of the past.

6. Whites must be responsible for the problems of other races, since the whites have created those problems through discrimination. Nothing in Rule#6 shall diminish the validity of Rule#2. A society that discriminates is responsible for the results of its actions. Those who benefit from discrimination benefit from discrimination.

7. Taxes are an inexhaustible source of funds and every problem can be corrected by increasing the amount of them. Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society. And you thought good deeds created good will amongst men? Nope, its taxes. Taxes are the price we pay for services, e.g., fire fighters, police, roads, schools, social security, etc. If there is a better way to fund those service...I'm all for it. In the interim, responsible and fair use of public monies in a good start, and the bush administration may be called many things, but "responsible" is not one a word that comes to mind.

8. It is the responsibility of anyone who has property or money to freely share such property or money with people who do not have any. See Rule#7. I assume this is about taxes, and if you find a better way to fund schools, I'm all for it. (Hint: vouchers aren't the answer...they simply shift funds from one system to another, and "guarantee" nothing).

9. Our country has no right to preserve its racial, whoops, make that cultural heritage. Sure it does...and it does. The victims of the Tulsa riots never received a penny for the city of Tulsa or the state of Oklahoma...the living victims. That is a perservation of the heritage of white folks' refusing to pay for the damage the caused, for the land they stole, and for the lives they destroyed. Business and usual.

10. This is stolen land. Whites stole the land. From each other. From Mexico. From the Indians. White people thus have no legitimate claim to sovereignty or to enforce immigration law. All people should be able to come to the US and live here as equals to any American. (Please ignore the admonition that Indigenous peoples can only be identified and properly remunerated via repeat visits to their gaming establishments. Do not question why you never see prominent liberal leaders giving the country to the first people to inhabit it, instead of to the renters who occupied it for 25 years out of the last 2000.) Immigrants made this country what it is, and they continue to add value. A sane and fair immigration policy is a worthy goal I support.

Dick Cheney

Dick Cheney- Evil Personified
Submitted by C in South Carolina

This prick will be so reviled in history, his grave will have to be kept a secret. These "family values" and "christian" leaders would rather bomb than talk, the thought of punishing a state for bad behavior is a lot sexier than boring old negotiations and dialog, right, you f@cking pro bush creeps?

Their mentality has cost us any moral authority and goodwill after nine eleven, you tough guys that went along with it supposed you could just bomb the world back to a September tenth reality, because you were jacking off in the boys room in school never learned that the world doesn't work that way, and the bully of the block always gets knocked on his ass, because time is on the side of the Goliath that seeks to destroy David.

Do you think that there's absolutely, positively no correlation between the obscene record profits by big oil and the two oil whores in the white house, their secret energy task force meetings that we, the people have been denied access to? IT'S OUR F@CKING COUNTRY and these cunts used their power to enrich those that they were beholden to. It's all too disgusting to see this piece of shit rail against someone that acts like a fucking grownup and approach a supposed rogue regime with a dialog to reduce animosity.

Such wonderful christian sensibilities they've brought to our foreign policy! F@cking @ssholes and their toad wives make sure they get their asses into church every Sunday for the photo op, though, so suckers can swoon at their piety.

And when we get hit again by some terrorist cataclysm, that every expert agrees is inevitable, you dildos will claim that everyone on the receiving end is an "innocent victim" that should have advocated kicking more ass around the world. F@cking sick.